> ## Content Index > Fetch the complete content index at: https://thechocolatelife.com/llms.txt > Use this file to discover other available public pages before exploring further. # The Future of Cocoa is ... Chocolate | #PSC 163 - URL: https://thechocolatelife.com/the-future-of-cocoa-is-chocolate-psc-163/ - Published: 2025-11-18T16:12:00.000Z - Updated: 2025-11-18T22:48:29.000Z - Description: Episode 163 of #PodSaveChocolate will present ideas to address the past, present, and future of cocoa, suggesting ways to navigate our way out of the current crisis. To many, chocolate is not the obvious starting point, but by the end of the episode, my hope is that you will. [updated] - Author: Clay Gordon - Tags: PodSaveChocolate, Live Stream, Op Ed **When and Where to Watch** 🗓️ This stream begins at 11:00 ****MST** (10:00 PST, 12:00 CST, 1:00 pm EST), on Tuesday November, Nov 18th, 2025. Links below to watch LIVE and to view the archived episode. This ****YOUTUBE** link is shareable. [![CTA Image](https://thechocolatelife.com/content/images/2025/11/ytlogo256x256.png)](https://youtube.com/live/jqjAXCb17GE?ref=thechocolatelife.com) Watch and comment LIVE or view the archived episode! Subscribe (free!) to the [@PodSaveChocolate YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/@podsavechocolate/featured?ref=thechocolatelife.com), like this video, comment, and ****share** this episode to help grow the #PSC community. [Watch this episode on YouTube ](https://youtube.com/live/jqjAXCb17GE?ref=thechocolatelife.com) This ****LINKEDIN** link is shareable. [![CTA Image](https://thechocolatelife.com/content/images/2025/05/LinkedInLogo.png)](https://www.linkedin.com/posts/claygordon%5Fpodsavechocolate-psc-lavidacocoa-activity-7396250821111320577-3qbB?utm%5Fsource=share&utm%5Fmedium=member%5Fdesktop&rcm=ACoAAAABaLUB44l0lzyoZ9nf9Lg8nfstgzLqxbg) Watch and comment LIVE or view the archived episode on LinkedIn. Join my network on LinkedIn to receive notifications and to refer business to each other. [Watch this episode on LinkedIn ](https://www.linkedin.com/posts/claygordon%5Fpodsavechocolate-psc-lavidacocoa-activity-7396250821111320577-3qbB?utm%5Fsource=share&utm%5Fmedium=member%5Fdesktop&rcm=ACoAAAABaLUB44l0lzyoZ9nf9Lg8nfstgzLqxbg) This ****FACEBOOK** link is shareable. [![CTA Image](https://thechocolatelife.com/content/images/2025/05/FacebookLogo.png)](https://www.facebook.com/share/1A3m6ZYj6h/) Watch and comment LIVE or view the archived episode (for 30 days from the date of the livestream; thereafter on YouTube) on ****TheChocolateLife page** on Facebook. (Follow TheChocolateLife on Facebook to receive notifications and catch up on other content.) [Watch this episode on Facebook ](https://www.facebook.com/share/1A3m6ZYj6h/) --- ## **Overview - Episode 163** Recent episodes of #PodSaveChocolate and posts have covered topics on sustainability, the future, and sourcing: [Why the EPIC FAILURE of Cocoa Sustainability Initiatives? | #PSC 161In episode 161 of #PodSaveChocolate, I will take a look at why cocoa sustainability initiatives have failed and why the failures were inevitable.![](https://thechocolatelife.com/content/images/icon/JR_Pods60x60FavIconCutoutButtons-324.png)The Chocolate LifeClay Gordon![](https://thechocolatelife.com/content/images/thumbnail/Ep-161-EpicFailure---Featured1920x1080.jpg)](https://thechocolatelife.com/why-the-epic-failure-of-cocoa-sustainability-initiatives-psc-161/) [ARS 1000: The Future of Cocoa? | #PSC 160Episode 160 of #PodSaveChocolate casts a critical look at ARS 1000, a continent-wide framework for sustainable cocoa. What is its future? Will the idea spread to other cocoa-producing regions? \[updated\]![](https://thechocolatelife.com/content/images/icon/JR_Pods60x60FavIconCutoutButtons-325.png)The Chocolate LifeClay Gordon![](https://thechocolatelife.com/content/images/thumbnail/Ep-160-ARS1000---Featured1920x1080.jpg)](https://thechocolatelife.com/ars-1000-the-future-of-cocoa-psc-160/) [The Changing Landscape of Cocoa Sourcing: Part 4 | #PodSaveChocolate Ep 155#PodSaveChocolate Episode 155 is the concluding part of this series, which examines challenges specialty chocolate makers face when assessing their bean suppliers’ claims for transparency, sustainability, corporate ownership, etc. \[Updated with summaries before the episode went live and after.\]![](https://thechocolatelife.com/content/images/icon/JR_Pods60x60FavIconCutoutButtons-326.png)The Chocolate LifeClay Gordon![](https://thechocolatelife.com/content/images/thumbnail/Ep-155-ChangingLandscape---Featured1920x1080-3.jpg)](https://thechocolatelife.com/the-changing-landscape-of-cocoa-sourcing-part-4-podsavechocolate-ep-155/) [The Changing Landscape of Cocoa Sourcing: Part 3Aligning your positions with your cocoa sourcing partners takes time and effort, but has major payoffs in all areas of your chocolate business. Part 3 of 4.![](https://thechocolatelife.com/content/images/icon/JR_Pods60x60FavIconCutoutButtons-327.png)The Chocolate LifeClay Gordon![](https://thechocolatelife.com/content/images/thumbnail/ChangingLandscapePart3Montage_Featured1920x1080-3.jpg)](https://thechocolatelife.com/the-changing-landscape-of-cocoa-sourcing-part-3/) Click into this post for the links to Parts 1 and 2. [ICI Says the Obvious: Disappoints Again | #PodSaveChocolate Ep 140Episode 140 takes a look at a recent report issued by the ICI - “Tackling child labour in cocoa: Results of ICI’s Member Reporting Exercise 2024.” What it says, and why this reporter is unconvinced.![](https://thechocolatelife.com/content/images/icon/JR_Pods60x60FavIconCutoutButtons-328.png)The Chocolate LifeClay Gordon![](https://thechocolatelife.com/content/images/thumbnail/Ep-140-ICI-Report---Featured1920x1080-5.jpg)](https://thechocolatelife.com/ici-says-the-obvious-disappoints-again-podsavechocolate-ep-140/) In this episode of PodSaveChocolate, I will connect some dots by suggesting concrete ways to remedy the challenges the industry faces. --- ### **Connecting** Dots *Concretely* > **TL;DR** – Everything has to start with sustainable markets for chocolate, which means it is the responsibility of actors in consuming countries to take the lead. In Episode 161, I argued that the most common definitions of sustainability used in cocoa focus exclusively on challenges in cocoa-producing countries – illegal labor, deforestation, poverty, etc. So, all of the efforts to redress environmental, economic, and social sustainability take place in-country. I also argued that to achieve those sustainability goals, it is necessary for there to be *sustainable *markets** for cocoa products to pay for the programs. Those markets are not in producing countries; they are in consuming countries. At $5000/MT FOB (average) and assuming 4 million MT production, cocoa (beans) is a $20 billion industry that operates on relatively thin margins. Chocolate is nine to ten times bigger (depending on methodology), and generally operates on much higher margins, especially at the consumer interface. > **Chocolate** is the economic key to solving the cocoa crisis. Chocolate is also what the consumer sees. Relatively few consumers know where cocoa comes from, relatively few chocolate consumers are directly involved in farming, and fewer consumers know anything about subsistence farming – *and they don’t care*. What they see is rising prices on supermarket shelves. While many profess to care about “ethical” and “sustainable” sourcing, their purchase behavior says that when those values raise prices, they will seek out lower-cost items, outsourcing (as I point out in [Part 1 of my series on The Changing Landscape of Cocoa Sourcing](https://thechocolatelife.com/the-changing-landscape-of-cocoa-sourcing-part-1/)) their morality to third parties. ### BHAG – the Big Hairy Audacious Goal 💡 ****Grow the specialty chocolate sector from about 10% of the global market (craft chocolate is less than half of that 10%) today, to at least 25% by 2035.** In other words, we need to grow the number of people who preferentially purchase specialty chocolate (which, by definition, is made using specialty cocoa beans). > On its own, I acknowledge this will not ensure that farmers are compensated in a way that pays for reforms that address the environmental, economic, and social sustainability issues at the farm level. However, we cannot let perfection stand in the way of getting started. ### What is Needed to Achieve the BHAG? The following broad categories need to be considered to achieve the BHAG. (This is not an exhaustive list.) 1️⃣ More & better data: bad/insufficient data leads to bad decisions 2️⃣ Organizational support for Specialty Chocolate & Cocoa 3️⃣ Maker co-operatives in consuming regions/countries 4️⃣ *Coordinated* marketing programs 5️⃣ Common transparency reporting guidelines 6️⃣ NGOs moving their global HQs *to a producing country* 7️⃣ Independent entrepreneurial development fund 8️⃣ Making smaller farmer federations easier to set up 9️⃣ NGOs must stop competing for “customers” 🔟 An engaged online *global* community Also: ⏫ More programs that help farmers capture a portion of the upstream added value. ### What is NOT Needed ⏬ Regulations that do not consider economic impact and that do not legislate who pays what. ⏬ More “civil society” certification schemes. ⏬ Wholesale adoption of [cocoa-free “chocolate”](https://www.confectionerynews.com/Article/2025/11/18/cocoa-free-chocolate-key-consumer-insights-for-manufacturers/?ref=thechocolatelife.com). --- ### **Comments? Questions?** If you have questions or want to comment, you can do so during the episode or, if you are a ChocolateLife member, add them in the Comments below at ***any*** time. --- ### **Episode Hashtags and Socials** #cocoa #cacao #cacau #chocolate #chocolat #specialtychocolate #craftchocolate #beantobar #PodSaveChoc #LaVidaCocoa #TheChocolateLife --- ### **Future Episodes** 🗓️ I will be traveling for the [Midwest Craft Chocolate Festival](https://www.midwestcraftchocolatefestival.com/?ref=thechocolatelife.com) and the Thanksgiving holidays. There will be no episode of PodSaveChocolate on Friday the 21st (a festival day) **or* Tuesday the 25th (a travel day). I am **hoping* to be in a quiet location to stream from on Friday the 28th. --- ### **#PodSaveChocolate and #TheChocolateLifeLIVE Archives** **To read an archived post** and find the links to watch archived episodes, click on one of the bookmark cards below. [Pod Save Chocolate Calendar and ArchiveNews, views, and conversations on topics in cocoa and chocolate streamed live to YouTube, LinkedIn, and Facebook. #PodSaveChocolate!![](https://thechocolatelife.com/content/images/size/w256h256/2020/12/JR_Pods60x60FavIconCutoutButtons.png)The Chocolate LifeClay Gordon![](https://thechocolatelife.com/content/images/2023/11/TagImageBanner-PodSaveChocTagFinal_1920x1080-5.jpg)](https://thechocolatelife.com/pod-save-chocolate-calendar-and-archive/) [#TheChocolateLifeLIVE ArchiveNews, views, and conversations on topics in cocoa and chocolate streamed live to YouTube, LinkedIn, and Facebook.![](https://thechocolatelife.com/content/images/size/w256h256/2020/12/JR_Pods60x60FavIconCutoutButtons.png)The Chocolate LifeClay Gordon![](https://thechocolatelife.com/content/images/2023/03/solen-feyissa-WG7v_wYZW4Q-unsplash-CalendarFeatured1920x1080.jpg)](https://thechocolatelife.com/thechocolatelife-live-calendar/) [PodSaveChocolateHosted by Clay Gordon, the creator and moderator of TheChocolateLife.com, #PodSaveChocolate covers a wide variety of topics in the worlds of cocoa and chocolate. The video versions of this podcast are hosted and archived on YouTube, LinkedIn, and Facebook. Click on the PodSaveChocolate link in the top nav on TheChocolateLife for the links to the post accompanying each episode.![](https://pnc.st/static/img/256x256.png)Pinecast![](https://social.pinecast.net/preview_card/podcasts/covers/d3730dca-0711-4720-9ef3-3b18918c1f0d/TagImageBanner-PodSaveChocTagFinal_1920x1080.jpg?title=PodSaveChocolate)](https://pnc.st/s/podsavechocolate?ref=thechocolatelife.com) Audio-only podcasts --- ## Not a Member? Live The Chocolate Life – Live La Vida Cocoa! Sign up for Free to comment and receive members-only content. Subscribe Email sent! Check your inbox to complete your signup. No spam. Unsubscribe anytime. Premium subscriptions available. ---